Curse

Patrograd · Jun 07, 2006, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Well, i was bored yet again and messing around in freaks trying to come up with a build that could cope 8v8 against most forms of popular builds on most maps, and still have enough damage to kill things every now and then, and that had the ability to easily split should it be required.

So, I wanted protection against the various forms of spike, I wanted good anti-warrior/ranger stuff, and i wanted a little spike of our own that we could get off pretty often if need be, and i wanted the ability to kill NPCs easily. So far this is what I have:

W_E_axe_shock_ttl

Warrior/Elementalist
Level: 20

Strength: 9 (8+1)
Axe Mastery: 16 (12+4)
Tactics: 10 (9+1)
Air Magic: 5

- Sprint (Strength)
- Frenzy (Warrior other)
- Eviscerate [Elite] (Axe Mastery)
- Executioner's Strike (Axe Mastery)
- "To The Limit!" (Tactics)
- Healing Signet (Tactics)
- Shock (Air Magic)
- Resurrection Signet ()
W_E_Sword_shock

Warrior/Elementalist
Level: 20

Strength: 9 (8+1)
Swordsmanship: 16 (12+4)
Tactics: 10 (9+1)
Air Magic: 5

- Sprint (Strength)
- Frenzy (Warrior other)
- "Shields Up!" (Tactics)
- Healing Signet (Tactics)
- Dragon Slash [Elite] (Swordsmanship)
- Galrath Slash (Swordsmanship)
- Shock (Air Magic)
- Resurrection Signet ()
Me_Mo_dom_insp

Mesmer/Monk
Level: 20

Fast Casting: 12 (11+1)
Domination Magic: 14 (10+4)
Inspiration Magic: 11 (10+1)
Healing Prayers: 1

- Shatter Enchantment (Domination Magic)
- Blackout (Domination Magic)
- Diversion (Domination Magic)
- Expel Hexes [Elite] (Mesmer other)
- Cry of Frustration (Domination Magic)
- Draw Conditions (Protection Prayers)
- Drain Enchantment (Inspiration Magic)
- Resurrection Chant (Healing Prayers)
Ele_Mes_anti warrior

Elementalist/Mesmer
Level: 20

Energy Storage: 10 (9+1)
Earth Magic: 10 (9+1)
Air Magic: 16 (12+4)

- Blinding Flash (Air Magic)
- Enervating Charge (Air Magic)
- Gale (Air Magic)
- Lightning Orb (Air Magic)
- Ether Prodigy [Elite] (Energy Storage)
- Ward Against Foes (Earth Magic)
- Ward Against Melee (Earth Magic)
- Resurrection Signet ()
Rit_W_counter_spike

Ritualist/Elementalist
Level: 20

Spawning Power: 11 (10+1)
Channeling Magic: 14 (10+4)
Communing: 12 (11+1)

- Soul Twisting [Elite] (Ritualist None)
- Shelter (Communing)
- Union (Communing)
- Soothing (Communing)
- Gaze from Beyond (Channeling Magic)
- Boon of Creation (Spawning Power)
- Disenchantment (Communing)
- Resurrection Signet ()
Mo_Me_boon_prot

Monk/Mesmer
Level: 20

Divine Favor: 16 (12+4)
Protection Prayers: 9 (8+1)
Inspiration Magic: 10

- Protective Spirit (Protection Prayers)
- Reversal of Fortune (Protection Prayers)
- Signet of Devotion (Divine Favor)
- Mend Condition (Protection Prayers)
- Divine Boon (Divine Favor)
- Inspired Hex (Inspiration Magic)
- Guardian (Protection Prayers)
- Mantra of Recall [Elite] (Inspiration Magic)
Mo_Me_Infuser

Monk/Mesmer
Level: 20

Divine Favor: 11 (10+1)
Healing Prayers: 15 (11+4)
Protection Prayers: 5 (4+1)
Inspiration Magic: 9

- Word of Healing [Elite] (Healing Prayers)
- Orison of Healing (Healing Prayers)
- Infuse Health (Healing Prayers)
- Healing Touch (Healing Prayers)
- Mend Ailment (Protection Prayers)
- Power Drain (Inspiration Magic)
- Inspired Hex (Inspiration Magic)
- Revealed Hex (Inspiration Magic)
E_Mo_runner_air_water

Elementalist/Monk
Level: 20

Energy Storage: 12 (11+1)
Water Magic: 2 (1+1)
Air Magic: 14 (10+4)
Healing Prayers: 10

- Blinding Flash (Air Magic)
- Lightning Orb (Air Magic)
- Windborne Speed (Air Magic)
- Deep Freeze (Water Magic)
- Ether Prodigy [Elite] (Energy Storage)
- Heal Area (Healing Prayers)
- Extinguish (Protection Prayers)
- Heal Party (Healing Prayers)

So, items up for review:

Would final thrust be a better second skill for the sword warrior? if he has final is his ability to spike often hampered?

Would the necro be better off as a mesmer primary? I chose necro because with a ritualist I thought the energy management from reaping would be good in what otherwise has no energy management, but the down side is long cast times.

Is it worth having gift of health on the boon? Would this be stronger with prot spirit? I have no prot spirit atm because the intention is for a 100% shelter, but this might be a dangerous game to play.

On the ritualist, i wanted to give the choice for the main spirit as being between shelter and union and soothing, depending on the opponent. Is there a better spirit configuration? Is there better rit energy management (ie something unstrippable) than boon of creation?

Is ward melee a better anti-warrior skill than ward foes?

Given a draw and an extinguish could the monks bring mend ailment?

Build has never been tested

feedback please.

[edit]

OK, have made some changes. Added a blindbot to the main group for anti warrior/ranger in place of the necro, changed the mesmer to more domination orientated, dropped air on the warriors in favour of tactics, replaced breeze with heal area on the runner, replaced other with orison and condition with ailment on the word, replaced GoH with prot spirit on the boon, relpaced foes with melee on the rit, with foes now on the blindbot, replaced sever with galrath on the sword.

So, to discuss:

Have lost expel hexes in the mix, but the build can still remove @20 hexes/minute. Is this enough, or should I look to find a place for expel?

Soul twisting or ritual lord on a mid line ritualist? It seems to me that people use RL on backline rits, and twisting on midline rits. Thoughts? Can this rit support ward melee energy wise?

Was tempted to make blindbot e/mo with HP, but was worried about hex removal with expel being dropped. Unsure on this atm.

Any more feedback greatly appreciated, as after a couple of really, really crappy nights we need to find something we can run :[

[second edit]

Replaced edrain with expel hexes and remove hex with drain enchant as per JRs suggestions

[third edit]

Put ward melee in place of shatter hex on the ele, and took ward melee off the ritualist and replaced. for now with disenchantment

JR · Jun 07, 2006, 08:51 AM // 08:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

...

Firstly; I don't understand why you are putting 8 in Air Magic. I would rather put the points into Tactics for a stronger Heal Sig, or put one more point in to take a Focus if you so wish. 8 seems slightly illogical.

Sever Artery on it's own seems like a bit of a waste, even if this is more of a pressure/degen build than an adrenaline spike build. I would sub that out for something like Galrath maybe. I do agree that Final Thrust doesn't work particularly well with Dragon Slash though.

Your hexers I am not really a fan of. Having played a Necro in a fairly simmilar build just last night with Price, Reckless, Faint, and Siphon I experienced just how much an Expell Hexes on the other team destroyed my contribution fairly quickly. I think to seriously pull of hexes you need to be able to overpower even that.

As such I can't help thinking that you would be better off subbing out Spirit of Failure and Images of Remorse for Shatter Enchantment and Blackout or something. Save yourself some attribute points, and run what I would consider a character with more impact on the game.

This then leaves the question of what to do with the Necromancer. I'm not entirely sure how I would change up that character. It may be a matter of a complete swap out. I don't think relying on Soul Reaping gives this guy particular longeivity either, especially in a pressure/degen build where you may struggle to make any kills for a good while at the start.

The other alternative is turning them into pure hexers. A Conjure Phantasm/Images Of Remorse... whatever else spammer, and a pure Blood and Curses degen spammer. Stress on the spammables. EDrain/OoB as energy engines, maybe squeeze a Draw on the Necro.

Gift Of Health is worth running, but over Prot Spirit? That's a tough call. How sure are you that you can reliably have Shelter up where ever that Monk is on the map.

Mend Ailment on the Word Healer, Condition on the Boon Prot; that is my usual set up. The Word Healer is slightly weaker on split, so benefits from it more.

The Ritualist is interesting; but I haven't personally played as one yet so I will leave this as speculation. How sure on an energy cost vs effect basis that the Ward vs Foes is worth the skill slot and the attributes? I generally do prefer Ward vs Foes to Melee, but Melee has the advantage of being a slightly more manageable cost on already stretched characters.

So basicly; it looks like a solid build, but I'm not too sure about the two offensive casters. I would either say make them pure hex machines, or not at all.

Patrograd · Jun 07, 2006, 09:26 AM // 09:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Firstly; I don't understand why you are putting 8 in Air Magic. I would rather put the points into Tactics for a stronger Heal Sig, or put one more point in to take a Focus if you so wish. 8 seems slightly illogical.

Hmm, i thought the same to be honest. when i first did this build I had low air, high tactics, but the guys who play warriors on the guild (I am arguably the worst melee player in the game, so tend to always listen to advice on this score

) told me when discussing this build in-guild that they preferred the extra damage to the extra healing, and that with regards to TTL you would be unlikely to get more than 4 anyway. So i set the tactics level to give a 100pt sig and 4 adrenaline from TTL and dumped the rest into air. *shrug* What do I know?

Quote:

Sever Artery on it's own seems like a bit of a waste, even if this is more of a pressure/degen build than an adrenaline spike build. I would sub that out for something like Galrath maybe.

/agree

Quote:

As such I can't help thinking that you would be better off subbing out Spirit of Failure and Images of Remorse for Shatter Enchantment and Blackout or something. Save yourself some attribute points, and run what I would consider a character with more impact on the game.

You could be right, I was looking here for a combination of 2 casters that could effectively shut down either melee or caster based damage as need dictated, and I tried to spread the responsibility across both of them because I am a fan of dual diversions, especially as a counter to smite groups. So i was starting from the position of wanting to get in two long duration diversions to counter smites, and both failures to coutner warriors/assassins/rangers and working backwards from there, resulting in that kind of weird setup you see. But I will look at making the necro pure anti-melee/ranger and the mesmer pure anti caster, and see if how that looks

Quote:

Gift Of Health is worth running, but over Prot Spirit? That's a tough call. How sure are you that you can reliably have Shelter up where ever that Monk is on the map.

On reflection, not very

Quote:

Mend Ailment on the Word Healer, Condition on the Boon Prot; that is my usual set up. The Word Healer is slightly weaker on split, so benefits from it more.

Thanks, I'll do that

Quote:

How sure on an energy cost vs effect basis that the Ward vs Foes is worth the skill slot and the attributes? I generally do prefer Ward vs Foes to Melee, but Melee has the advantage of being a slightly more manageable cost on already stretched characters.

To be honest, I dont know a great deal about this kind of ritualist and the energy requirements they have. I like ward foes, as its a great kiting accessory and great for helping with flag control, and would really like to see it in here somewhere. I am hoping the energy is Ok, as the natural mid-backline positioning of this guy makes him perfect for it in that way

Thanks for the feedback, will go away and tinker some more

Dzan · Jun 07, 2006, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Just my opinion from a first glance, but I think you are going to have trouble with warriors with this, just not enough anti-warrior stuff. Especially if, as JR said, the other team has expel hexes.

Also like JR said, 8 air magic is puzzling, since the damage from Shock is more or less insignificant, even in a spike. Air 8 isn't amazingly better than Air 3 and another point or two in Tactics.

On the runner, I don't care for Healing Breeze, I've been converted to Heal Area. Heal Area heals for slightly less assuming you have a 20% enchant mod when you cast Breeze, but you get all your healing up front, which in many cases is the difference between life and death. Plus in split situations its a better heal to help out your teammates, though that is a negligable benefit.

I prefer Orison on the Word monk over Heal Other, but there are debatable points there.

Ward Foes on the ritualist is interesting. Ward Foes is nice to have in a build and opens a lot of tactical options for you, but I'm not sure how much better it is than something which keeps you from being interrupted like Mantra of Resolve, Distortion, or Ward Stability.

Since you have only one heal party and it's on the runner, I suggest adding Feast of Souls to the ritualist. It definitely helps against degen/pressure teams. The only problem is it requires you to use Ritual Lord over Soul Twisting, although I think that might be better anyway.

JR · Jun 07, 2006, 09:35 AM // 09:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

I prefer Orison on the Word monk over Heal Other, but there are debatable points there.

Ah, something else I spotted when reading but forgot to mention.

On a Word Monk I really see Word replacing Heal Other, not orison. The point of it after all is to keep you casting five energy heals, if you are casting tens then you are not making best use of Word.

Vindexus · Jun 07, 2006, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Astrix, an old monk from FnlD, used to run RoF instead of Orison because Orison is bad. Is it worth the attributes? I dunno, but I really don't like Orison as a skill.

Patrograd · Jun 07, 2006, 10:17 AM // 10:17

OK, have made some changes to the OP, looks a bit more durable IMO, if leaning towards spike rather than pressure :[

JR · Jun 07, 2006, 10:18 AM // 10:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

Astrix, an old monk from FnlD, used to run RoF instead of Orison because Orison is bad. Is it worth the attributes? I dunno, but I really don't like Orison as a skill.

Orison isn't great no, but the simple fact is neither is RoF on a Word Healer. You really do need another spammable heal to keep peoples bars up, whilst word is recharging. Yes RoF can negate damage, but I don't really consider that the job of the Word Healer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

OK, have made some changes to the OP, looks a bit more durable IMO, if leaning towards spike rather than pressure :[

Degen/Pressure builds = long and boring matches.

Makkert · Jun 07, 2006, 10:18 AM // 10:18

I guess it's all personal taste... But I'd take Dwayna's Kiss over Heal Other...
With its recent buff, its standard on my bar if I run a WoH monk.
As for Orison: bad?
Don't know... It's not grand, but its not terrible either...?

Patrograd · Jun 07, 2006, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Ok, couple of more questions

Have lost expel hexes in the mix, but the build can still remove @20 hexes/minute. Is this enough, or should I look to find a place for expel?

Soul twisting or ritual lord on a mid line ritualist? It seems to me that people use RL on backline rits, and twisting on midline rits. Thoughts? Can this rit support ward melee energy wise?

Was tempted to make blindbot e/mo with HP, but was worried about hex removal with expel being dropped. Unsure on this atm. The other alternative is to drop shatter hex and put in, for example gaze of contempt or well profane for those annoying smiters. Removing shatter hex weakens us vs hex degen though (could only remove about 15 hexes per minute instead of 20), so would it be worth it then to bring dwaynas kiss over orison?

Any more feedback greatly appreciated, as we intend to take this baby out for a test drive this evening :-]

JR · Jun 07, 2006, 02:07 PM // 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

Ok, couple of more questions

Have lost expel hexes in the mix, but the build can still remove @20 hexes/minute. Is this enough, or should I look to find a place for expel?

I think you can afford to drop Energy Drain for Expell, and then Remove Hex for Drain Enchantment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

Soul twisting or ritual lord on a mid line ritualist? It seems to me that people use RL on backline rits, and twisting on midline rits. Thoughts? Can this rit support ward melee energy wise?

I think Soul Twisting would be the best bet there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makkert

I guess it's all personal taste... But I'd take Dwayna's Kiss over Heal Other...
With its recent buff, its standard on my bar if I run a WoH monk.
As for Orison: bad?
Don't know... It's not grand, but its not terrible either...?

Dwayna's Kiss is a decent skill, I personally like having the two self-heals just incase though; only running Dwayna's in enchantment heavy builds. I suppose it's a matter of preference.

Patrograd · Jun 10, 2006, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Testing shows this build to be very weak against smite, but Ok otherwise. Need to work on a counter to smite in 8v8

DieInBasra · Jun 10, 2006, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Doesn't the mesmer run into energy troubles? I usually play an exact mesmer (draw conditions for distortion, since I have one elsewhere) in a more agressive build, and I barely have enough energy for the occasional Diversion if I want enough energy for spike assist and Expel, I couldn't imagine adding draw into the mix. Now my past few games have been against hexheavy opponants, but if you run into a team like that, wouldn't it have been better to stick it on the Air? He isn't too packed. Maybe instead of Foes or ECharge? Of course, if in your experiance it hasn't been like that, I guess I'm useing distortion too much

Is the DPS of Dragon Slash on your warrior really worth the mobility of Charge and the spike potential of Final Thrust? Your build looks alot more like a spike then a pressure ATM, so I'm wondering.

EDIT: It looks like you have the tools to deal with smite though. Shatter/drain Zealots, diversion AoE or RoF? Kite through Foes and Melee? Blackout warriors?

JR · Jun 10, 2006, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Ward Against Foes and Diversion are both fairly strong counters against smite, i guess the trick is making sure you prioritize them.

Patrograd · Jun 10, 2006, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieInBasra

Doesn't the mesmer run into energy troubles?

Good comments, thanks

Energy generally seems to be an issue tbh, but I have a feeling this is because, as JR says, there is too much spamming of less needed skills, a lack of skill priority maybe making the team suffer. It is hard moving from a pressure build, which is all about spamming to a certain extent and where the energy requirments for that are inbuilt, onto a build like this which is all about skill selection and timing and energy management through restraint. I think if you have been used to running a hex spamming build, to suddenly find yourself on a character that might spend 10 seconds not casting, or only casting "low value" utility type stuff takes some adjustment as it doesnt feel natural

As an example, if we're facing smite then the ele needs to priortise ward foes, and perhaps leave blind and ward melee alone a bit, as whether the thumpers hit or not is besides the point to a large degree (they are just using shock for the snare and water hexes to a certain extent and riding the aura), and the mesmer probably needs to prioritise diversion and blackout, as there isnt going to be alot to cry, and probably one of the warriors can run flags leaving the HP at the stand, that kind of thing. practise ftw I guess

Konran · Jun 17, 2006, 04:52 PM // 16:52

I think since you only have two attack skills on your sword warrior, you should just switch out Dragon Slash for Quivering Blade. It does the same amount of damage and you'll still be able to spike just as often.

EDIT: I've also found that rush works much better than sprint because it usually always ready and is great for a stance-cancel when you're being hit in frenzy.

fatboyslimerr · Jun 18, 2006, 01:12 PM // 13:12

I struggled to read all the comments (don't have all the time in the world) so I hope I'm not repeating anyone.

I play Expeller mesmer, I defo wouldn't use draw cond and expel hexes or your mesmer will be limited to a support role rather than mesmering. I use
Power Drain (thats a lot o' energy management

) Expel Hexes/Diversion/Distortion/Drain Enchant/Shatter Enchant (love this skill for spikin' etc) then either Shame/Blackout/Feedback and Hard Res. I won't run into energy problems with power drain

Also what spirit do you intend to twist with your ritualist ??

I would also use Dwaynas Kiss because its recent buff makes it very effective against hexers.

As for the sword warrior, I would either choose sever/gash/galrath/final with charge or possibly bull's charge OR Dragon Slash, Sun and Moon, Sever and Gash with Rush (not sure you need frenzy with the amount of adrenaline you get from dragon slash). Be sure to use vamp sword if your using sun and moon though... its great

I don't think your lacking in damage but I'm not sure how well you could split if your using an infuser tbh. Wards are a good idea but I'm not sure Ward Against Foes is possibly the best option, I dunno if its better or worse than Ward Against Stability which really ruin a shock warriors day against fleeing foes.

Good Build though

I wanna use a ritualist in GvG and your Rt looks juicy but I'm not sure about the attributes you've choosen. I'll have to have a think about that.